Луки и все с ними связанное.

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Только что, hoplit сказал:

В принципе, насколько понимаю, в тексте нет про то, что эти воины могут в таком темпе неделю шлепать, да и "сразу в бой" тоже нет.

Там вообще, похоже, легенды о Нараяме.

Рудокопов писал конкретно, Блюхер тоже. Но тогда бой был уже другим.

Только что, hoplit сказал:

Могли со всем своим оружием и запасом пищи на 3 дня совершить дневной марш-бросок в 100 ли. Нет?

Теоретически могли, но потом отлежаться пришлось бы. Блюхер давал примеры рекордных бросков. 60 км. (100 ли по 576 м. - примерно то же самое) было рекордом, поставленным один раз армией Чэнь Цзюнмина. А войска были достаточно опытные и нагрузка была не такая, как на этих легендарных "удальцах из рода Вэй".

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3 часа назад, Чжан Гэда сказал:

Теоретически могли, но потом отлежаться пришлось бы

Возможно, что и отлеживались. Там же и  操 Вы перевели как "тренироваться". "Могли натянуть арбалет в 12 даней, пройти с полной нагрузкой 100 ли за день", нет? Возможно что и про марш-броски из разряда тренировок.

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10 час назад, Чжан Гэда сказал:

魏氏之武卒,以度取之,衣三屬之甲,操十二石之弩,負服矢五十個,置戈其上,冠冑帶劍,贏三日之糧,日中而趨百里 ... 。

Вернемся к тексту (вторая часть):

цао шиэр дань чжи ну (упражнялись с самострелом в 12 дань, но можно и так - владели самострелами в 12 дань - но этот перевод - нонсенс из-за отсутствия механических приспособлений для взвода)

фу фу ши уши гэ (несли колчаны с 50 стрелами)

чжи гэ (обзаводились гэ)

ци шан гуань чжоу (наверх себе надевали шлемы)

дай цзянь (несли мечи на поясах)

ин саньжи чжи лян (несли на спине зерна на 3 дня)

жичжун эр цюй боли (в день быстрым шагом проходили 100 ли)

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Myron J. Echenberg. Late nineteenth-century military technology in Upper Volta. The Journal of African History, 12, pp 241-254. 1971.


The most common weapon in the traditional arsenal was the bow and poisoned arrow. While types of bows, arrows, and poisons applied to their tips might vary, such an overall similarity in the manufacture and use of this weapon existed that it is possible to speak generally about techniques. Arrows were about 1 ft. long and tipped with iron, usually barbed, but occasionally simply rectangular, with a poorly filed tip. The use of iron tips meant that, though an individual might obtain and prepare the wood for the shaft, the blacksmith was the principal manufacturer of the weapon. Smiths employed a vegetable fibre to hold the iron tip in place. The opposite end of the arrow might have a little casing of straw for ornamental purposes, but no feathering. Bow-makers used strings of bamboo, which they fastened to the bow with leather thongs. The bow ranged in length from 30 to 40 in.

The technique of employing this weapon was straightforward. Archers carried their quivers, filled with up to forty or fifty arrows, over their shoulders, and relied for success upon as heavy a barrage of arrows as they could achieve, some men firing two arrows at a time. In the absence of feathering, and thus of accuracy, this was perhaps the most sensible method of employment


Archers placed great faith in the effectiveness of the arrow poison. Throughout the savanna zone of the Western Sudan, poison mixtures were complex, but the toxic base was invariably the grains of the strophantus hispidus plant. Occasionally, venom from cobras or other poisonous snakes or the stingers of scorpions were added, as were putrified meats and other plants with no toxic elements at all. Each maker of poison had his own highly special plants personal to him, so that no two compositions were ever quite alike. Analysis by botanists and other investigators during the colonial period indicated that these personal plants were not toxic. Nevertheless, each maker of poison considered these plants vital to success. Poison-making was not entirely an empirical undertaking, since the manufacturer believed the malevolent spirits associated with death to be as important to the process as the ingredients. A whole series of sanctions and taboos were involved in the art.


The strophantus plant contains a toxic element called strophantine. It belongs to the digitalis family, a well-known heart stimulant in modern medicine. Strophantine acts by weakening the heart muscle and stopping the heart through systole. In the western Sudan, the poison, when effective in entering the blood stream, could bring about death quite quickly, within a matter of ten to thirty minutes


African soldiers possessed antidotes for the arrow poison, and carried these into battle in a pouch or sheep's horn. These usually had alkaloid or glucose bases. One favourite remedy consisted of a black paste made up of carbon, shea butter and other materials. French physicians in the battle area were often short of drugs, and agreed on the value of African preparations, using them with what they felt were favourable results. Europeans in the ranks, such as foreign Ugionnaires and other enlisted men, followed African practice; they too carried the shea butter mixture with them into battle.


Armies in the Niger bend did not adopt firearms until late in the nineteenth century, though a few such weapons had certainly appeared in the region before then. ... But the first significant appearance of firearms in Upper Volta did not occur until the Zaberma brought them when they occupied Gurunsi country between 1875 and 1880. Al-Kari of Bousse, who had studied at Djenne and had made the pilgrimage to Mecca around 1880, also knew of the new arms, and he spent three or four years building up his arsenal in muzzle-loaders and powder before launching his jihad in 1892


If a few groups possessed muskets, rapid firing and repeating arms were very rare in the Niger bend. No existing evidence suggests the Mossi had any at all; it is doubtful if the Marka army had more than a handful.


At times, Africans purchased calibrated shot for their arms, but this was the exception rather than the rule. Much more important was local production by blacksmiths of projectiles of various shapes. Some shot were round, others prismatic or irregular, made equally of worked iron or of crudely rounded ferruginous stone. Calibres were usually large, attaining the size of pigeons' eggs in some cases. Also, shot were roughly uniform in size irrespective of the calibre of the musket.


Throughout the western Sudan by the 1880s, muskets were no longer exotic weapons. This is the case even for the Niger bend, one of the last regions in West African to acquire muskets either from the south or the north.


К чему это. В регионе ходит небольшое количество "так себе качеством" огнестрела (насколько понимаю - дульнозарядные гладкостволки), порох, в массе - плохой. Пули - тоже, временами стреляли всем, что "в дуло влезло". Луки - плохие, стрелы - тоже, но их много и местные активно используют яд.

А теперь - данные по ранениям у французов, когда они "зашли на огонек".


As opposed to the musket, the bow had the advantage of familiarity and of safety for the user. The bow's effective range was said to be about fifty to seventy-five yards. Up to that distance, the arrow was capable of substantial penetration and damage, even if it was not an effective longrange weapon. Manin, the French doctor present at the battle of Bouss, witnessed a case where an arrow fired within this range perforated the skull of a French tirailleur. But there were defences against the arrow. The French columns suffered few abdominal wounds, since their soldiers adopted the Mossi practice of tying blankets, bou-bous and other articles around their waists. Most wounds in fact occurred in the exposed members and in the head and neck.

Drs Le Dantec, Boye' and Be're'ni, 'Etudes des fleches empoisonne'es du Haut-Dahomey', Archives du Medicine Navale et Coloniale, LXVIII (1897)



Dr Manin, 'Rapport me'dical sur la colonne dirige'e contre Bossi (Soudan francais)', Archives du Medicine Navale et Coloniale, LXV (1896)




The musket was certainly more dangerous to the user than the bow. Chamber explosions and powder burns were common, not only in West Africa, but everywhere that muskets were employed. They were also more complicated to charge, and it took time and a certain ability to acquire the necessary skills. Muskets were, however, capable of doing damage at greater distances than the bow. French sources state that the typical West African musket had an effective range of up to two hundred yards, almost three times that of the bow.

Тут "очень вольно передали текст".

Dr Manin, 'Rapport me'dical sur la colonne dirige'e contre Bossi (Soudan francais)', Archives du Medicine Navale et Coloniale, LXV (1896)


Насколько понимаю, в лучшем случаем можно написать "не были эффективны на 250 метрах"?



In an all-day battle at.Bousse" on July i 1894, 68 the French column led by Captain Bonaccorsi had twelve men killed and one hundred and seventeen wounded. The Marka at Bousse resisted to the bitter end and left no survivors. The next day, the French picked up eighty muskets of variable length and quality among the dead. How many defenders there were at Bousse the day of the battle is not known, but archers probably outnumbered those using muskets by a considerable margin. Muskets killed eight men outright and wounded thirty-seven, about half of these with bones broken and other injuries serious enough to keep them out of battle for several weeks. Arrows killed four French tirailleurs, and wounded eighty, of whom four died soon after as a result of complications caused by the arrow poison. But about half of the eighty wounded were so slightly touched that they were able to return to battle that same day. So a minority of some eighty guns killed the same number as did arrows, and put about twenty-five men out of action, while arrows did the same for about forty men.


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      - Jerry Melbye and Scott I. Fairgrieve. A Massacre and Possible Cannibalism in the Canadian Arctic: New Evidence from the Saunaktuk Site (NgTn-1).
      - Hoig, Stan. Tribal Wars of the Southern Plains.
      - D. E. Worcester. Spanish Horses among the Plains Tribes.
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      Plains Armor.
      - Heinz W. Pyszczyk. Historic Period Metal Projectile Points and Arrows, Alberta, Canada: A Theory for Aboriginal Arrow Design on the Great Plains.
      - Mavis Greer and John Greer. Armored Horses in Northwestern Plains Rock Art.
      - James D. Keyser, Mavis Greer and John Greer. Arminto Petroglyphs: Rock Art Damage Assessment and Management Considerations in Central Wyoming.
      - Mavis Greer and John Greer. Armored
 of Central
      - Thomas Frank Schilz and Donald E. Worcester. The Spread of Firearms among the Indian Tribes on the Northern Frontier of New Spain.
      - Стукалин Ю. Военное дело индейцев Дикого Запада. Энциклопедия.
      - James D. Keyser and Michael A. Klassen. Plains Indian rock art.
      - D. Bruce Dickson. The Yanomamo of the Mississippi Valley? Some Reflections on Larson (1972), Gibson (1974), and Mississippian Period Warfare in the Southeastern United States.
      - Wayne  William  Van  Horne. The  Warclub: Weapon  and  symbol  in  Southeastern  Indian  Societies.
      - W.  KARL  HUTCHINGS s  LORENZ  W.  BRUCHER. Spearthrower performance: ethnographic
      and  experimental research.
      - DOUGLAS J. KENNETT, PATRICIA M. LAMBERT, JOHN R. JOHNSON, AND BRENDAN J. CULLETON. Sociopolitical Effects of Bow and Arrow Technology in Prehistoric Coastal California.
      - The Ethics of Anthropology and Amerindian Research Reporting on Environmental Degradation
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      - Walter Hough. Primitive American Armor. 
      - George R. Milner. Nineteenth-Century Arrow Wounds and Perceptions of Prehistoric Warfare.
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      - Laubin, Reginald. Laubin, Gladys. American Indian Archery.
      - Jon L. Gibson. Aboriginal Warfare in the Protohistoric Southeast: An Alternative Perspective. 
      - Barbara A. Purdy. Weapons, Strategies, and Tactics of the Europeans and the Indians in Sixteenth- and Seventeenth-Century Florida.
      - Charles Hudson. A Spanish-Coosa Alliance in Sixteenth-Century North Georgia.
      - Keith F. Otterbein. Why the Iroquois Won: An Analysis of Iroquois Military Tactics.
      - George R. Milner. Warfare in Prehistoric and Early Historic Eastern North America.
      - Daniel K. Richter. War and Culture: The Iroquois Experience. 
      - Jeffrey P. Blick. The Iroquois practice of genocidal warfare (1534‐1787).
      - Michael S. Nassaney and Kendra Pyle. The Adoption of the Bow and Arrow in Eastern North America: A View from Central Arkansas.
      - Roger Carpenter. Making War More Lethal: Iroquois vs. Huron in the Great Lakes Region, 1609 to 1650.
      - Craig S. Keener. An Ethnohistorical Analysis of Iroquois Assault Tactics Used against Fortified Settlements of the Northeast in the Seventeenth Century.
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      - William J. Hunt, Jr. Ethnicity and Firearms in the Upper Missouri Bison-Robe Trade: An Examination of Weapon Preference and Utilization at Fort Union Trading Post N.H.S., North Dakota.
      - Patrick M. Malone. Changing Military Technology Among the Indians of Southern New England, 1600-1677.
      - David H. Dye. War Paths, Peace Paths An Archaeology of Cooperation and Conflict in Native Eastern North America.
      - Wayne Van Horne. Warfare in Mississippian Chiefdoms.
      - Wayne E. Lee. The Military Revolution of Native North America: Firearms, Forts, and Polities // Empires and indigenes: intercultural alliance, imperial expansion, and warfare in the early modern world. Edited by Wayne E. Lee. 2011
      - Steven LeBlanc. Prehistoric Warfare in the American Southwest. 1999.
      - A. Gat. War in Human Civilization.
      - Keith F. Otterbein. Killing of Captured Enemies: A Cross‐cultural Study.
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      - Azar Gat. The Pattern of Fighting in Simple, Small-Scale, Prestate Societies.
      - Lawrence H. Keeley. War Before Civilization: the Myth of the Peaceful Savage.
      - Keith F. Otterbein. Warfare and Its Relationship to the Origins of Agriculture.
      - Jonathan Haas. Warfare and the Evolution of Culture.
      - М. Дэйви. Эволюция войн.
      - War in the Tribal Zone Expanding States and Indigenous Warfare Edited by R. Brian Ferguson and Neil L. Whitehead.
      - I. J. N. Thorpe. Anthropology, Archaeology, and the Origin of Warfare.
      - Антропология насилия. Новосибирск. 2010.
      - Jean Guilaine and Jean Zammit. The origins of war : violence in prehistory. 2005. Французское издание было в 2001 году - le Sentier de la Guerre: Visages de la violence préhistorique.

    • Огнестрельное оружие в Южной Африке.
      By hoplit
      Несколько статей по истории огнестрельного оружия в Южной Африке.
      Sotho Arms and Ammunition in the Nineteenth Century. Anthony Atmore and Peter Sanders (1971). http://www.jstor.org/stable/181011   A Note on Firearms in the Zulu Kingdom with special reference to the Anglo-Zulu War, 1879 J.J. Guy (1971). http://www.jstor.org/stable/181013   Firearms in South-Central Africa. Anthony Atmore, J. M. Chirenje and S. I. Mudenge (1971). http://www.jstor.org/stable/181012   Firearms in Southern Africa: A Survey. Shula Marks and Anthony Atmore (1971). http://www.jstor.org/stable/181009   Portuguese Musketeers on the Zambezi. Richard Gray (1971). http://www.jstor.org/stable/181010   The Art of War in Angola, 1575-1680. John K. Thornton (1988). http://www.jstor.org/stable/178839   The Sacred Musket. Tactics, Technology, and Power in Eighteenth-Century Madagascar. Gerald M. Berg (1985) http://www.jstor.org/stable/178494   Portuguese warfare in Africa. Malyn Newitt (2000).